A CONVERSATION WITH MISS KANEDA

@0:14 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

I think you might still be on mute.

@0:28 - Kylie - MissKaneda

I think I'm better now.

@0:30 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

Yeah, I can hear you now.

@0:31 - Kylie - MissKaneda

Wonderful! Hi! Good morning! Or early afternoon for you.

@0:37 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

Exactly, yeah [laughs]. How are you first of all? 

Kylie - MissKaneda

Lovely. Lovely.

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

Okay. Just to start things off, I have got, like, a few questions I started writing down, but I want to keep this as, like, open a conversation as possible, and I… as I said, I usually try and keep these things to like somewhere between 60 and 90 minutes. I'm going to try and be kind of strict about that because I have had interviews that have gone way over in the past.

Kylie - MissKaneda

Yeah–

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

But I want this to be a place of just sharing mostly, because I feel like I'm probably gonna learn quite a lot about myself as much I'm going to learn about you and about the community from doing this.

So yeah, I know you said you're wanting to be super open about this and, yeah… let’s see how this goes! But yeah, so I kind of want to start with, like, this might be a bit of a complex question to actually start with but… I want to ask about your first memories of becoming not only aware of your kink, but also [to ask you if you think] there's any kind of crossover or intersection between the ways that you've come to terms with experiencing your sexuality in general and your gender identity as well, [to ask if you think] there's any sort of crossover there.

So this is a bit of a storytelling question. I felt this might be a big thing to load upon you, but yeah, basically, I just want to see if you're willing to talk me through the story of how you came to terms with realising your size kink and see if there's sort of any intersections [between this and the formation of] the rest of your identity as a person.

@2:29 - Kylie - MissKaneda

Yeah, well, I mean, all of these things are sort of inextricable for me, and I'll try not to make this a 45 minute story because it could very easily.

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

Oh, don't worry, please do! 

Kylie - MissKaneda

[Laughs.] Okay. But, um, you know, these things started as fantasies. You know, my fascination with size goes back to like preschool days.

I was four years old, you know, in my basement, like stopping on tiny cars and, um, drawing pictures of things being crushed, of increasingly larger size. You know, it's just… 100% just always been a part of me. And [it was] a total fixation, I would be looking at people's shoes on the bus when I was in elementary school and thinking like, there was very much a size thing those times, looking at older kids and seeing they had bigger shoes and you know, that eventually transitioned as my sexuality started to develop to just be the thing that was erotic for me.

You know, even before I got like exposed to anything on the internet, because that's part of everyone's story these days now, but, um… the first time I remember kind of like grinding against anything sexually, like was, you know, when I was like 10 years old and I was playing this game I made up with tiny, like, army figurines and, um, you know, shoes and I was rolling dice and sometimes they would escape, sometimes they would get smashed. You know, there's never been a me without size fantasies and my sexuality has never had any separation from it.

You know, to the point where it was the only thing that really worked for me… [pause] You know, that's only really sort of expanded as I transitioned later in my mid-30s to now: I'm 40 years old now. But it's 100% been a part of everything I've experienced. It led me to gender discovery. It, uh, you know, helped me embrace, you know, kink in a broader scale, mostly through the people at SizeCon, which was an incredible experience and definitely changed my life completely.

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

Yeah, I'm going to definitely ask you more about that later because I know that's been such a big thing for you personally in particular–

Kylie - MissKaneda

Absolutely, yes, yes. But you know, I… over time as I started having experiences online as a, like, very young teenager, adolescent, I began to see crush videos and those would often lead to dominatrices and like big boots and leather or like severe outfits. And you know, that developed more into a fascination with, like, powerful women who would destroy things. It led to a desire for cruelty, humiliation… You know, just all elements of power and tremendous power imbalance. You know, I think A lot of people when they talk about size fantasies, that's often at the core is this impossible, fantastical power discrepancy between the people involved.

You know, that's something I struggled with for a lot of my life because it seemed so strange. It seemed so wrong. And I couldn't talk about it… [pause] I had some bad experiences trying to share it with partners that I had. And it became a great shame that this was, that I was, like, sexually defective. I could not engage with sexuality in a way that was quote, unquote, normal. I could not be a satisfying partner for my girlfriends because I had a few wonderful girlfriends, you know, through my… my teens and twenties. I struggled a lot really until SizeCon 2016, [which] sort of saved me from a lot of that.

But it shaped my life in really tremendous ways. [Pause] And I'm still kind of dealing a little bit with figuring out how I work sexually, sort of grappling with the idea of possible asexuality being part of who I am… [Pause] And trying to figure out what's okay, what works, and what will work for me and my girlfriends. After hormonal transition, a lot of my desires kind of softened and changed… [Pause] I still find a lot of those elements erotic, but they're not as much of a total fixation.

@8:10 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

Yeah, that's interesting. Can I actually ask when you started formally transitioning?

@8:18 - Kylie - MissKaneda

Yeah, just about two and a half years ago. I was actually, I socially transitioned several years before I started hormones. So, you know, I was out dressing femme in public for probably three or four years before, um, I tried hormones. I was scared. But some people I met actually through SizeCon, other trans people, you know, told me about a lot of the emotional changes they experienced. Because I was happy with my body. I'm happier with my body now, so I'm glad I did it! [Laughs.] But it was the emotional changes that people talked about that were interesting to me. And I definitely experience those. I feel things differently and it feels a lot more right.

@9:10 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

That’s kind of… I just found that interesting because that, for me personally, kind of really reshaped my own approach towards sexuality and size. For me, I kind of found it the same way. It was a bit of a kind of shameful fixation through a lot of my adolescent years. I would say I'm quite a bit younger than you are. I'm only, like, mid-twenties… But I started… [pause] I don't know whether it's the same in the US, but I don't think it is from the top of my head. When I started medically transitioning, I started on Oestrogen, on Estradiol, back in 2019. I was supposed to start on the anti-androgen [prescribed as a testosterone suppressant to transgender women undergoing feminising HRT regimens in the UK], which is Decapeptyl, at some point in 2020, but the pandemic kind of just completely fucked all of that. So it took me until last year to start on that. And I kind of realised very quickly after that time, um… I don't know, I kind of… I just kind of loved how relaxed I found, like, my actual sexual urges becoming. But on the other hand, like, I actually became way more, just, comfortable with the idea of embracing that side of my own sexuality. [Hormonally transitioning] kind of just led me to embracing [size as an erotic kink] even more. The emotional changes just, kind of, really helped with that personally.

I don't know if, I don't know if it's, I don't know, like, this would be like an experience that translates, whether [transitioning hormonally] kind of helped you become more, um, just comfortable with that, the development of your sexuality. Or just with yourself as kind of a being who, like, experiences any kind of sexuality at all.

@11:04 - Kylie - MissKaneda

I mean, I don't experience… [pause] Like it's hard for me to compare to what other people's urges might be because for me, it's always very much a compelling emotional thing. It's been like a yearning for closeness, even pre-transition. And that just intensified that much more with hormonal transition. You know, I… [pause] I never really think about experiences or acts or like physical elements. It's very much a feeling that I want to have. You know, whether that's just… [pause] being with my girlfriend and just like being close in our bodies, being near each other, or whether that's, you know, power, whether that's… [Pause.]

You know, I have been learning to understand myself as a switch. So I think that may be part of something that I'm figuring out now a couple of years in. I've always been a very strict and very fierce dominant. And that's been sort of how I shaped my personality through transition, how I saw myself, how I connected to confidence and power in my daily life.

You know, a lot of this, sort of, giantess persona that I was playing out on the internet long before I ever imagined, you know, being a woman of any sort in reality, informed a lot of how I develop myself. You know, it's certainly not like the end all be all of how I live. But... I think there's some element to my having engaged with this… [pause] this kink and fantasy primarily from what I thought was a male perspective and viewing women strictly as powerful and dominant, at least the women that I wanted to engage with and imagine.

And then as I moved into being feminine, um, really embracing that power, being that person. Because I'll say like my discovery of my own, um, sort of gender issues came through a lot of role-playing online. And… I assumed that I was extremely fixated on the actual fantasy. It took me a long time to realise that it was the portraying a feminine role that was so powerfully addictive to me, you know, to the detriment of a lot of things in my life. I was deeply addicted to spending as much time as possible in a chat room or on an MMO or whatever it might be, you know, being these various women. But the characters I was always portraying were… [pause] typically relatively evil, powerful, cruel. Oftentimes nuanced and interesting because I could not help try to write rounded characters still as well, but… [pause] You know, I will say that it’s only been in the last year or so, um… [pause] You know, experiencing moments of frailty and fragility and loss, and sort of yearning for other people to have some control and not always being the one with all the power that I very slowly gotten comfortable with the idea that I can safely be a switch and that it doesn't diminish any other part of me.

So I'd say that certainly is a big change and I think a lot of that is sort of connected to being able to more readily access my emotional states, and feel things more clearly and deeply as I am now.

@15:24 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

I think that's so kind of interesting, the fact that… [pause] What am I trying to say? I might be a little bit frazzled so I'm a little bit unwell at the moment as well, so I’m trying to power through that.

Kylie - MissKaneda

I’m sorry to hear that.

@15:40 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

But, um… yeah, I think that it's sort of interesting but like… [pause] yeah, I don't know, that sort of shift to frailty, it's just so interesting to with that ability to kind of embrace that. I'm kind of… [pause] I'm kind of... Where am I gonna go now? Sorry, I'm just so fried at the moment.

@16:09 - Kylie - MissKaneda

You are quite alright. You know, we have plenty of time.

@16:21 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

But… [pause] I mean, I kind of feel like just with that as well, with the idea of just size and dominance and all that sort of thing. I did actually have a question about like, I remember reading through your blog [MissKaneda.com] and or maybe it was an interview I found with you [on size kink community website ‘There She Grows’], like I've been cribbing for a few different places to try and prepare for this. But you do mention – much like I am – being a very tall person. I was kind of curious to sort of see if that experience [of] your body, and the relationship between that and… the sort of gendered element of that body, affected the development of your own erotic imagination or the development of your kink.

@17:09 - Kylie - MissKaneda

I can't say that it did, honestly, because so much of my… so much of all that development happened, know, starting off like very early in my youth, but also it was very separate for me. You know, it wasn't until, gosh, even probably like the early 2000s that I even sort of fell into role-playing as, you know, a feminine persona.

And all of that really happened… [pause] There was a decade plus of just that experience being fully online and completely separate from any sort of understanding of gender that I had.You know, I never, I never could look at myself as a tall woman. And the women that I imagined and portrayed through my various experiences role-playing… [pause] I mean, I will say I often lean towards tall women, but not always. It was very much about sort of an intrinsic power. And, you know, height has not really connected to that much of all for me.

I will say that now where I am, I enjoy being very tall. You know, it's been kind of a blessing for me that I don't experience height dysphoria like, you know, so many trans women, unfortunately, do. I do love being tall, and I love the experience of sort of towering over people, whether it's just in a day-to-day interaction or, you know, my girlfriends. Because I am obviously taller than both of them. But one of the girls I'm dating is a switch, and she is kind of the only person that I kind of look at, you know, from sort of a submissive perspective from time to time.

And she's over a foot shorter than I am, you know, it's very much… [pause] I find power very much intrinsic to a person and their character and their point of view and their grasp of language. It's… [pause] it’s about attitude. [Laughs] I think it's how I'll primarily say that.

@19:37 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

Yeah, no, I mean, that's interesting because I kinda felt like I had to ask the question because for me, the two things are very intimately connected. I kind of… [pause] I don't know kind of exactly why, but… [pause] I found myself kind of gravitating towards the idea of the female giant as a way of just kind of… [pause] Just, I feel like it made me feel a lot more comfortable with my body and the way that it was. And, like… this is a point of massive shame to me, [one] that I've only kind of like alluded to a couple of times [in publicly discussing my own journey towards identifying as a trans woman and socially/hormonally transitioning], but like I kind of feel a bit upset by the fact that a lot of the people, and the portrayals of female figures, that helped me to feel, like, confident enough to come out and start presenting femme as someone who's like over six and a half tall kind of came from finding depictions of tall women in either freak-show [reality TV or documentary media] or [size] fetish spaces [online]. Like it was never kind of… [pause] it was never kind of about that for me. 

Like, I kind of felt very dirty about it because, like, when you're in your teenage years, and I don't know if this is going to resonate with you, but I often like… [repetition] I have this phrase that I call the “Be versus Do Conundrum” that I kind of use a lot with exploring queer and trans perspectives on gender and sexuality where, like, whether you're like closeted or not like it's very hard for [a queer or transgender person] to kind of tell the difference sometimes between like, whether, like you look at a person [you have some kind of] attraction to and [you might not know] whether you just, like, really admire them: you want to emulate their style you kind of like, want to emulate parts of their body or their presentation or their kind of attitude – or whether you just want to fuck them.

@21:55 - Kylie - MissKaneda

Sure I mean if I think of immensely common things especially among like you know, trans-sapphic individuals, you know, it's still something that even very comfortably into my transition, it’s like [still] hard to differentiate sometimes [between . And you know, I don't think that differentiation needs to happen. You know, I–

@22:15 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

This is something that I kind of began to realise is that like, I think for me, obviously finding those, finding those individuals and finding those bodies and actually being able to go through and explore like who these people were behind the photographs that people were just stealing for kind of like fetish-bait basically like, just yeah, that was really helpful and kind of empowering for me.

And as I say, I'm just, like, sort of upset that it came from that space and I wasn't able to find these people on their own merits, you know. But, like, kind of later on – and like again, particularly after I went on Decapeptyl – I kind of started realizing that, like, this was kind of both.

Oh, like, I kind of found myself being, I kind of found myself being way more comfortable kind of like taking on the kind of like supernatural giantess persona, unlike it's kind of like sort of, partly ironically part of not has just sort of fed so much, like my art career, like my entire art career at this point is just built on like kind of exploring that.

And like, I have, I mean, I mean, like you, I do have like a sort of, I do have a giantess persona, but like sort of unlike you, like it's something that's like a kind of, it's it's a kind of cabaret persona.

So it's like a, it's a fiction persona that I found to kind of drag out of like just being purely a kink thing.

I kind of use it to like explore a lot of other different things, but like, yeah, I kind of, yeah, I thought like, yeah, it's interesting to know that.

that that experience doesn't translate, but it's interesting to hear your perspective on that, like just the fact that it was something, it wasn't something that was necessarily connected to experiences of body and the fact that there's this different perspective on the powered dynamic that exists within these sorts of fantasy and relationships that sort of drove it for you.

@24:30 - Kylie - MissKaneda

Yeah, I mean, that's, um, very much what it's about. It's power. It's all power. And I mean, you know I have picked up sort of associated fetishes along with this. There's like, I think I did a podcast with someone one time and they were asking about, you know, my kinks and the size fantasy stuff in general. And you get just such a spider web, like everything. You just start taking off other boxes that are in. you are radius after that. And, you know, I very much like feet because I was attached to stepping on things and seeing things being stepped on. So that became an associated fixation. Shoes and legwear [too]. I find the lower half of the body as the most exciting part of the body in most cases. Which is… [pause] interesting to put out there, because when I first started exploring gender, a lot of what I did was through Twitter, and it was before I considered transitioning at all. But I just happened to wear a lot of thigh highs and take pictures of low angle shots, but never showed myself above the waist. I still had no idea that there was any sort of gender-y things going on with me. This was just like, oh, this is cool, I can be this thing. And so I think the fixation with different parts of the body has also led me to appreciate my own body in different ways. I have great legs, I have pretty feet, so being able to see desirable traits in myself, even before any other parts of my body really developed, even before considering hormonal transition… [pause] allowed me to imagine myself… [pause] as a desirable feminine person. 

I would not have called myself, I think in couple of calling myself trans until I had already been wearing dresses for like two years straight. [Laughs] I was very deeply in denial about myself. So I would have never called myself a woman or anything close to that at the time. But I guess they'll see things in me that I would have found desirable in other femme individuals. And that sort of led me on a path.

@27:05 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

[J]ust on the [subject] of intersections between kinks for a second, I kind of did want to know whether all of those kinks, whether it's size, feet, crush, shoes, et cetera. Do the other kinks exist as a sort of separate kind of fixation in their own right? Or do they kind of need to intersect for you? Do they need to kind of combine in some way, or can they exist on their own?

@27:42 - Kylie - MissKaneda

I mean, they – from a practical element – I think can absolutely exist on their own, but I'm also, like, very good at, like… [pause] turning things around in my mind to have them be whatever I want them to be. You know, like… [pause] Crush, I think, is one of the things that sort of developed into a very strong element. The idea of something just being destroyed and transformed under a powerful woman's shoe will always be significantly erotic to me.

You know, size, like, strangely enough, size has, um… [pause] almost faded a little bit from being the most prominent element of my fantasies. It feels like it's almost a foundational kink. And that might be because it's something that's completely inaccessible in reality, without a lot of work, without a lot of imagination, without a lot of, you know, shared conceit.

You know, and as I have these last few years, have You know, not only continued my transition, but you know, I now have partners that I engage with in kinky ways. You know, I live with a girlfriend who is very much submissive towards me. And so I have these, you know, regular real life experiences that don't typically involve size, but are still very thrilling for me.

And my other girlfriend, she is very much still fixated with size. And so I sort of engage in it through her. But when I think about things that I personally want or create, a lot of those fantasies have now transitioned to the more external elements. And that's… [pause] what I'm imagining. Simpler things almost, because I think power exchange has got to be a lot more accessible for me. It's not something that's existing in creative fiction and photography. It's something that I can experience just by being with another person.

And, um… [pause] You know, [incorporating] elements of crush, elements of worship and degradation and those things [into erotic play], I can concede and achieve power with other people without even necessarily considering size. And that is immensely thrilling and real to me. 

There are still times where I will see posts online. Usually it's my girlfriend writing something sizey and I will find it very alluring and, um, it will kind of spur my mind… [Pause.] But you know that may just be that I haven't had the chance to access it much. I will say I had an experience with the last SizeCon they had like a little raffle and they made little, like, cardboard buildings and if you won the raffle and you could destroy some of the buildings. And my girlfriend and I all bought some tickets and we won a couple city blocks, and even though it's been like several months just the experience of destroying buildings with my girlfriend was an incredible rush.

So I don't know maybe just because I haven't had the time and space to connect to and explore this as much as I would like to recently, as my life has very much changed in the last couple of years. There's a lot of things in flux with me right now as far as my relationships and sexuality [go], so I'm still figuring a lot about them.

@32:16 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

I mean, I feel like that can only be a very natural sort of thing, like, [it] can only be a very natural thing considering sort of how, as we keep saying, how kind of early you are in terms of hormonal transition, I feel like, I feel like everyone goes through that and like, just the number of accounts I've seen just like about how much, it's strange to think about, just like, how much just, like, one slight change in someone’s chemical makeup can just change so much about them.

I mean, I feel like, yeah, I mean, I hope it's being like an interest. I hope it's been both an interesting and positive journey just in and of itself to go through as a person.

@33:10 - Kylie - MissKaneda

Absolutely. 

@33:22 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

But yeah, I feel like… [pause] I'm sort of in two minds. I feel like now we've actually mentioned SizeCon, I feel like we should actually start talking a bit more about that. Because I know from reading, from reading up about you, that's how much of a role that's sort of played in your life. I mean, I did read the, like, the massive account you wrote up about, I think it was 2017 or 2018 SizeCon.

@33:46 - Kylie - MissKaneda

It's possible.

@33:47 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

Yeah, about the Size Cafe in particular, which like, I've seen your name mentioned [in relation to]. 

Kylie - MissKaneda

[Laughs]

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

So, like, yeah, I just, I just wanted to have a bit of a conversation about that because it's a space I've known about for some years. It's a space that, like, because… [pause] I don't know if you know, if you've come across the [author of Deviant Desires: A Tour of the Erotic Edge] Katharine Gates–

Kylie - MissKaneda

Yeah!

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

Yeah, she's convinced me to actually go to next year's SizeCon as a research thing. Like I'm currently pursuing funding to do that at the moment.

Kylie - MissKaneda

Oh, that’s incredible!

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

Yeah, I kind of just wanted to have a discussion about that, just, as a space because, like, I don't know, like… As you've said, like, you’ve changed a lot as a person over the last few years, like, just sort of emotionally, hormonally, but I kind of just wanted to have a discussion about that space with you as someone who has such a deep connection to it and past.

@34:56 - Kylie - MissKaneda

Yeah, and I can't start talking about it without sort of talking about what it's meant to me. And you know, this started as something I think you mentioned, you've spoken to [artist, size community figurehead and founder of SizeCon] Jitensha, Veronica.

@35:08 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

I’m trying to! So I've tried reaching out to her, Katharine's tried reaching out to her. I think the person I'm speaking to after you [erotic author and size kink blogger Elle Largesse, who I interviewed a few hours after I wrapped up this conversation with Kylie], I think, is also quite heavily involved in SizeCon, and like she's also like, she's also dropped me her details [and is] trying to see if she can actually sort of like try and get hold of her as well. She's being a very tricky person to kind of get hold of. But I so desperately do want to speak to her at some point.

@35:36 - Kylie - MissKaneda

Oh, God. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure it'll be an incredible conversation if/when that happens. But you know, I first came across the idea… [Jitensha], I think, had been running little meetups in New York for size people, and then wanted to do something bigger. And there was a post on one of the Giantess City forums back in like 2015. And as soon as she put the idea out there, I was absolutely like fixated. I was like, yes, this is something we should do. People should get together. Like, this would be great. This would be an amazing experience. 

But I was in a space where I had a very feminine online persona and did not embody that in any way in my real life. And so it was like this – my position in the size community, you know, [was that] I had been writing mostly short [erotic size kink] stories for several years at this point [under a feminine pseudonym]. And all of a sudden I was going to be in a physical space. And so I did the only logical thing I could do and I bought some dresses and heels.

It was a very… [laughs] It was a very torrid time in my life because I was doing this all in secret. I was married at the time, had kids. But I, you know, at, I want to say like three or four in the morning, you know, put on a sweater dress and boots, and went out to my car in total secret and drove to New York for this first convention. It was my absolute first experience dressing or presenting femme in any way. And it was going to a convention.

And it just felt like absolute magic. You know, I looked an absolute sight, you know, my hair was still short. I had no idea how to dress myself. And not only was just like being out [presenting femme] in public an experience, like I stopped by a Starbucks and was like, oh, yes, I'm going to convention. I'm an author. You know, it was like extremely silly. [Laughs.]

@37:46 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

There’s something just absolutely iconic about that though. Like, as a coming out story, like that's just, that's just astonishing. Like already I can see, like, if I draw anything from this, it's going to be that.

@38:10 - Kylie - MissKaneda

But you know the… [pause] from the beginning, SizeCon was a very queer space. Jitensha, you know, is a queer Latino woman and she is just absolutely incredible.

I had volunteered to help run the panels at this first convention and this first convention, by the way, it was in a tiny art gallery space with like, you know, it was in a very hot day – I want to say in like April of 2016 – and there were just window unit air conditioners that were not keeping the place cool enough at all because there were so many people in this tiny space. And I had offered to help with panels and it turned out that I was doing all of the panels.

Unfortunately, I was able to partner up with another person and they became very good friends with me. We ran all the panels all day long and the panels were basically a bunch of like, you know, metal folding chairs – like 20 of them – [and] a folding table, and it was in, like, just a cordoned off almost closet space, you know, [these were] very humble beginnings.

But not only was everyone extremely welcoming and positive about my very messy gender presentation, but one of the panels… [pause] And it's something that has become called the ‘Dark Side’ panel, that was just about like the more cruel and twisted and violent elements of the fantasy. And Jitensha spoke on this and she spoke with incredible passion about, like, getting shit on, getting chewed up, like just like all these things. And for context, like this is a space, you know, a lot of these people that are here, this is the first time there's been an event like this, you know. This is the first time that a lot of us have taken this, what is frequently a very secret passion, you know, something that nobody knows about us and… [pause] so many things that people have never said out loud, you know, and we're here just like talking about like, you know, all these different elements of size fantasies with other people, inflation and furry stuff and just like, you know, being around real people and sharing that together and it was just a non-stop, like, euphoric experience.

But just me sitting there watching Jitensha talk about, you know, all these things and talking about just owning it and how… [pause] great it was that we had these detailed and strange and unique fixations, you know, that we could build these rich fantasy lives, like viewing it as a positive, as a strength, you know.

When you think about all the creativity that comes out of these spaces, as people try to… [pause] connect to, you know, physically impossible things, you have something incredible–

@41:22 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

It's one thing that I started realising, revisiting that, is just how much… not even just the creativity, [but] also like… you can see, like, elements of humour as well coming across in a lot of people's writing.

Like as I've been revisiting other people's stories, like I, um, kind of… I remember, I kind of started revisiting some of [size erotica writer] Aborigen’s stories, like–

Kylie - MissKaneda

Oh my God, he’s incredible!

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

That's how I found a lot of you guys actually was by, kind of, exploring his website and going through the [other size erotica] authors he listed [on the ‘Size Writers’ page of his website, aborigien-gts.com], but I started reading through his ‘Lovely Mari’ stories again, [which are a semi-satirical collection of erotic short stories featuring a supernatural, size-shifting giantess witch named Mari, and] which I remember really enjoying as a teenager, and realising just how many little comic references there are throughout [those stories] that just play off the absurdity of [size as an erotic fantasy]. And for me that's a massive thing. Like, even before [size] became a kind of unironic sort of… creative, and academic, and indeed again sexual fixation for me, like, I… [pause]

So like just as an aside, and I'll let you continue the story in a second, but when I first started exploring [the concept of giantess fetishism through my artistic practice in 2021], I wrote a short story that was essentially just like me extrapolating the plot of um… [pause] I think it probably was, I know you mentioned [size fetish pornographic filmmaker] Gary Pranzo in your [account] of 2017's SizeCon, I think it might have been one of his films… [pause] Like the [ones with the] very kinda like cheap plastic-y cities within, like, the office space. And I kind of wanted to write something that just extrapolated the plot of one of those films. The classic [giantess pornographic film plot] of, “Woman in very cheap, kind of, like, lab coat whips out Size Ray; uses it on self; grows; destroys city.”

Kylie - MissKaneda

[Laughs]

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

And I wrote this, this like, amazingly long plot line about like sort of trying to take this as seriously as possible, making this woman [into] this undercover scientist like trying to like combat efforts to like, like one of the things I'm studying is like the use of [a synthetic oestrogen supplement called] Ethinylestradiol [as a medical intervention to] stunt the growth of tall girls [in the mid-to-late twentieth century]. And like, asking about how she was trying to combat this and how… the power kind of went to her head and she kind of like go through this whole like sort of size growth scene and then you just see her standing in this cardboard city wondering where the fuck she actually is and kind of like just dealing with the absurdity of that.

Kylie - MissKaneda

[Laughs]

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

I love, like I love that I’ve been going back and revisiting those stories, realising that I've not been alone in sort of, like, exploring that absurdity and that humour and just, like, taking the creativity of that for what it actually is. And I think from what I've just… [pause] and I think particularly from your accounts of SizeCon, like that's just shone through so much, you know.

@44:27 - Kylie - MissKaneda

And it's hard to, like, imagine, you know, a size community because it is disjointed. Like any online community, it's very disjointed.

But then you get to these spaces and you see people and they tell you, “Oh, I've read your stories,” or, you know, you get to meet people who've produced videos or you make friends with like, you know, an incredible, like, model and producer and all of sudden you’re buying drinks at a hotel bar with them. I have had non-stop incredible experiences there because every year you see people sort of… [pause] getting this for the first time. You know, being able to, like, see real people like them really relishing this experience.

You see people, like, breaking free of shame because that's very much what this experience was. Jitensha's accounts and her constant message, and she's turned this into now like a half an hour plus presentation that she gives every year, is just owning what you love, and you know that's a message that I've really tried to capture. Just you know eerily and excitedly pursuing whatever your passions are. Even when that's you know, vicious giant women or you know… [pause] blueberry kink things or whatever like you know it's cool, it's great, it's wonderful, talk about it, you know. I've told friends and co-workers about SizeCon. I… [pause] you know, most of the people that I know know that I have a, you know, at least a very kinky life.

@46:06 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

I mean, how do you find that, like… [repetition] How do people kind of react to that?

I kind of want to ask because I'm kind of like, I say this as somebody personally going through that a lot at the moment and probably being like, way too TMI with the people that I work with in particular?

Kylie - MissKaneda

[Laughs]

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

I'm so glad that I kind of work in a space where I can be like that. Like, I work in a tiny theatre here in London and like everyone there, like, I feel like every single rule of a workplace is sort of broken in that space.

Kylie - MissKaneda

[Laughs]

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

Everyone is really communal. It's super queer, it's super neurodivergent, there's a literal polycule amongst like a load of the workers there. So, like, if I come, if I do come out and say, like, I have a size kink, and like the jokes I've made about starting an Amazonian OnlyFans aren't actually nearly as much of a set of jokes as people may have thought them to be, like–

Kylie - MissKaneda

[Laughs]

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

But I kind of want to ask just about that. About the people that know, the people you have told about this, and just, like, their initial reactions and how they kind of are now, how they've kind of settled into knowing that about you and… also your experiences of actually telling people as well.

@47:29 - Kylie - MissKaneda

Yeah, I mean there's different levels of detail that you can give different kinds of people. You know, I'm a manager in my position so a lot of my, like, employees don't know as much, aside from that I go to a convention, that it's a kinky convention, [and] that I have, you know, sort of a kinky life, right? People that are closer to me, some of the other managers, you know, they know more about the space, they know more about me and it's allowed them to just mostly make more horrible jokes and also to occasionally fluster me to their amusement, you know? They'll be like, oh, Kylie's just going to step on this guy, you know, or whatever it might be. It just becomes another silly thing because it's… [pause] I think it's very natural to build these things up as like a big secret or like a monumental revelation. But I've gotten at least a little better about kind of just treating it as another thing, you know, another thing about me.

I mean, I also, whenever I first started doing any sort of like, you know, moderate sex work, you know, posting pictures, videos, you know, whatever that might be, I read very early on that if you're going to do anything like that, you have to be prepared for every single person in your life to find out about those things. And, you know, that kind of helped me move through determination that like, I'm gonna own these things. You know, if I got more comfortable using my actual legal first name, you know, and associating that with the sort of Miss Kaneda persona, you know, I'm not super careful and I'm not concerned if people find, you know, news of me through my Patreon, then like… [pause] whatever, you know, then we have something more interesting to talk about if they're not going to be weird about it, but guarantee that anybody who's looking for something that is probably just going to be weird about it.

So yeah, I mean, I enjoy having that out there. You know, I enjoy, like, my, you know, talking to my friend about one of the novels that I wrote and, you know, like telling him about it. My boss knows I do a lot of speaking and group moderation at this convention that I'm a part of. And that it is, you know, an adult creative space at least. [Laughs] You because I'm excited about it. I love it. It's just… [pause] It's all about how many details I'm willing to give different people, but I'm not afraid of anything getting out there. It’s good to be able to live that way and not worry.

@50:24 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

Yeah, I mean, that kind of makes sense. I mean, I have started describing this project as being my third coming out, basically. Because it's been six years since I came out as trans. It's been about two years since… I've had an autism diagnosis since I was about 13. It's something that everyone's always known about me, but it's only really been within the last like two years or so that I really started to learn what that really is. And like I started describing myself as disabled, which has been just an amazing relief for me, and I've been able to access so much from that, but I feel like over the last year or so, as I've kind of started to… [Pause.] I mean, me actually embracing the term “Giantess” is a very ironic thing that I started just throwing into my sort of artist's bios when I did cabarets, and sometimes I wouldn't even realise I was doing it. Like when I was applying for the funding I got off Arts Council England to do this project, I had to put together a portfolio of some of the live arts stuff I'd done. I went back and I found some of these, like, social media posts that [cabaret producers had] put up about me [featuring artist biographies I had written and sent them as marketing copy in their captions] and I realised, “Oh there's that word again. I don't even remember doing that.”

Kylie - MissKaneda

[Laughs]

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

But I kind of… [pause] it's kind of just become like a very…[pause] it's kind of become like very… Like, non-ironic. Like, still tongue-in-cheek but very kind of non-ironic for me. And I feel like I've got to this point where, like, as I've been trying to get hold of people within the [size] community itself, and I've been kind of just diving into it without either the feeling of shame that I kind of grew up with or the feeling of… [pause] kind of compulsion that kind of takes over you when you're sort of dealing with sexuality as someone who’s testosterone-dominant. It's kind of allowed me to have that sort of freedom in a way, and I'm still like… [Pause.] 

The only people I feel like I don't know, like, if they know or if they're going to matter are probably my parents. It wouldn't shock me if they did because once again, like, I have performed the story that I told you about earlier, [and] I did literally build myself a cardboard set in a project space just like the Gary Pranzo films–

Kylie - MissKaneda

[Laughs]

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

–and literally stripped in front of my parents into a bikini and started like sort of taking like miniature men out of my bra and panties.

@53:07 - Kylie - MissKaneda

Maybe you’ve revealed something, something maybe.

@53:12 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

I also know that, like, any discussion of sex or any kind of sexuality with my family ends kind of badly. I mean, I even… completely aside from this, I've actually been experimenting a lot with kind of like stage make-up recently and I decided to recreate this look that [Chappell Roan,] a queer pop artist I really like, sort of portrayed in [the music video and single cover art for] a song called My Kink Is Karma, and like the second [my parents asked me what inspired the make-up look]… all I had to say was “My Kink Is” and like my parents are just like, “Don't want to hear about it.”

So like I mean, I think that I've had, like, outlets to kind of talk through these things but I kind of like… I work with, like, amazingly open people willing to have those discussions and willing to, like, let me talk about, like, finding nuclear weapons intensely and kind of like dealing with that and kind of understanding that and kind of like almost opening up their own kinks as a result of that.

And like I come from, like, a very like sort of neurodivergent creative background but… [pause] it's kind of yeah I mean it's kind of just [pause] interesting to hear that it's just become so kind of normalised in that way for you. I mean, if I'm not misinterpreting that.

@54:41 - Kylie - MissKaneda

Yeah, I mean it's kind of part of, like, coming out is everything all together, you know, because I discovered my sort of gender situation at the same time that I you know became more confident in my kinks and fetishes. They've been very intermingled through my entire life. so having them both kind of spring forth together, because it happened to be at SizeCon where I had this experience… [pause] it's just been part of me.

As I came out and developed, you know, as a woman, I also came out and developed as a kinky dominant. And I don't think that I can divide those things. [Though I’m] possibly [more capable of dividing those sides of my identity] now than in the past. Something I talked about in therapy, like last year, as I was starting my sort of a therapy journey, is, you know I built my identity, and I have become a confident and attractive and fully developed woman at this point. And now there's still more to do. It's such a journey that once you get to that point, you're like, OK, I did it. But I still have so many things to figure out. And that's, I think, when the first time that my domme identity and my gender identity started to diverge and become a little bit more complex.

But again, these are recent things, you know, over the last year or two… [Pause.] God, I I'm sure we spent our entire lives reading these things out, right? At least I'm assuming so far I have been.

@56:37 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

I mean, that's kind of half the fun in a way.

I mean, I think about this a lot when I think about my own journey, like… [pause] when I started doing these interviews, I didn't start sort of like sharing some posts from them and some like screencaps from like talks I did with with Katharine Gates and [from when] I spoke to… [pause] I don't know, like, it was sort of a tangential conversation, I don't know if you've ever heard of the artist Annie Sprinkle…

Kylie - MissKaneda

I did not but I mentioned it to one of my girlfriends and she immediately knew, like, everything about her.

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

Yeah, um, but yeah I posted [about] that and I started talking about, like, the possibility of me going to New York next year to do SizeCon, and… I'm still in contact with one of my old art teachers who I've known since I was about 13 years old, um, who like wrote this like amazingly, like, just encouraging congressional story comment where she was like, she was like super encouraging me to go and like pursue the whole SizeCon thing. And I was like, I had to ask her: like, 10 years ago like when I was still way pre-transition – just this, like, really kind of just shy, like, sort of traumatised kid in an all-boys’ private school – did you ever think that this is where this was going to go? [That being a queer, transgender, kinky self-identified giantess who made work about her own erotic divergence was how my life, my art career, my lived and embodied experience of sexuality and gender were all going to turn out?] Like, was there any indication of that? And I kind of think, like, that's the joy of these things.

And like, I kind of, I don't have all the answers in my life. I wasn't expecting you to have all the answers in yours either. But it's just so interesting to hear about the journeys and those perspectives that people take… [Pause.] But yeah, also just like, kind of back to the community again, just for a bit. I kind of wanted to actually talk about some of the work you've actually produced, like particularly some of the written work, the kind of graphic collaborations that you've done as well.

I did actually have a question regarding… I know you did quite a few collaborations once one time with [size artist] SorenZero. I want to ask, like, first of all, how did you find that process of actually starting to collaborate with people within the community, and do you prefer working as an independent sort of writer and creator, or like do you prefer artistic collaboration?

@59:10 - Kylie - MissKaneda

I mean I… [Pause.] That period was probably, like, the most productive and exciting period in my writing career. I will say over the last couple years I've essentially just completely stopped and I feel like this is something that hormonal tradition played a part in.

When I go back and look at a lot of my old writing it's very fueled by inaccessible desire and frustration, and… [pause] that's something I realised until very recently when I shared some of my stories with my partners. But to stick more to the question, you know, I started writing because I was encouraged by a couple of other writers that I met in a chat room. And they were both people whose work I enjoyed and admired. And SorenZero ended up kind of in our circle through various chats. And we ended up interacting a lot on message boards and started talking. And SorenZero specifically is an absolutely incredible talent in so many different ways. And, you know, we became friends. We talked a lot. Because I spent a lot of my time sort of online and in conversations with these two authors and SorenZero as well. 

I'm only still really in touch with one of those people, but, you know, I think Soren really liked my work. I think it sort of resonated with him. And I know his art has always been incredible to me. That there's such a narrative element to the way he presents a still image. You can sort of feel characterization and emotion in those experiences. And so I think through mutual admiration, we ended up talking and… [pause] yeah, I would basically write a story and beyond him being just an incredible artist, he is a great writer himself. He is an excellent editor and he contributed a lot to, you know, really honing my writing style. I'd never worked with an editor before. And the only writing I have ever done has been size-fetish writing. You know, I enjoyed words and I majored in English and, you know, enjoyed literature a lot. I really enjoyed writing essays and literary analysis, but fiction never seemed to be something that I could do. You know, until I wrote something.

You know, someone paid me like 20 bucks and I wrote like a little four-page story for them, and people said it was good, and then I kept going. But you know, I loved working with Soren because he did a lot [to help] me develop [creatively]. And honestly beyond just working together he did a lot for me personally: you know, he created a 3d model of me as a woman long before I ever imagined being one. And for a long time that was the background on my phone. It was an image of me, you know, like he like took measurements of my face and, you know, created [a virtual “me.”] We called her KAN 3DA and just like talked about her like another person, and actually I wrote one story in first person [which he illustrated] using this model of me.

It was just… [Pause.] He's really wonderful and talented. And we had a little bit of a falling out over money at one point, you know. And tried talking a couple times more. I mean, I still really like and enjoy him. He's still doing a little bit of work here and there. But we're just not as in touch as we once were. But definitely the best things I've ever written. Aside from one of my novels that I think is actually the best thing I've written, but it happens to be a Pokemon fanfic. So it's not very marketable for that reason.

And it is very hard to tell people that the best thing I've ever written is a Pokemon story. But we would bounce ideas off of each other and I would get inspired, and then I would just disappear for two weeks and just furiously write. And then he would hack away with edits and just create art to accompany it.

And… [Pause.] Yeah, I loved seeing the things I created coming together with his art. It was a really special time. And honestly, the money we made off of that fueled, that's how I bought basically all of my clothes and shoes for transition.

We partnered up with Giantess Katelyn [Brooks, a giantess fetish model, actress and entrepreneur], who runs a huge site, and unfortunately she's recently outed herself as a transphobe. But, you know, we've actually made, like, reasonable money for a while, and I spend it all at, like, Old Navy and buying shoes online.

So yeah, it was, [SorenZero]'s actually been a really important person in my life. And I'm really grateful for the time we worked together.

@1:04:47 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

Yeah, I had to just clip that entire story of the 3D model just because I just found that so adorable. I feel like it's so wholesome. I feel like I'm gonna have to use that for something.

@1:05:00 - Kylie - MissKaneda

I’m gonna have to send you the picture that I kept [of KAN 3DA]. It's actually, I think on my Patreon, clipped part of it for the background of my Patreon still. It was really special. And it's a picture, you know, [in which] I'm wearing just, like, tight sort of faded jeans and tall boots and like a red leather jacket. And I actually got a red leather jacket. I've lost it since then, but I, you know, inspired by this model of me actually got an outfit that was [much] smaller at one point in my life.

So yeah, the whole thing's very cool. And the story [SorenZero and I wrote featuring KAN 3DA,] ‘Sundays’ – it's free on my Gumroad. I think it's on my DeviantArt too. Although it probably doesn't work on DeviantArt because he made it as a flash book.

@1:05:45 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

I actually wanted to go through and actually read some of your work before I came on and did this [interview], but then I kind of realised that I don't, like… despite all the shit I've done with the government's money through this project, I'm not sure that like buying erotic novels can really be something I can claim back off the government. 

Kylie - MissKaneda

Believe me, that may be difficult, that may be challenging.

@1:06:06 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

That being said, I'm fully embracing the fact that I've somehow got… [pause] particularly this British government to pay for me to do this project. I'm actually planning, I'm going to be doing a photoshoot in sort of the guise as some of the characters I've created for this project. And like, for one of them, completely as an aside, I am going to make myself a sign that says “Rishi Sunak paid me £10,000 to make giantess porn.” And it's also going to be my sign for next year's London Trans Pride as well. As we are going in to an election year next year in this country as well. I feel like... Yeah, but I kind of... Yeah, I kind of did have a bit of a look through some of the, like, just some of the plot lines and some of the stories that are on your website. And I did know about the Pokemon fanfic as well, which I feel like, I don't know, it's something just ridiculously on brand, I think, for like a sort of queer/trans person as well, quite honestly.

@1:07:19 - Kylie - MissKaneda

Yeah, it's the best thing I've ever written. I mean, I have it on my Patreon for free because I can't sell it. I released it for like the Pokemon 25th anniversary a couple of years ago. But you know, as I go back and read that, it's… [pause] kind of funny. When I first started embracing polyamory, it was something that started with my now ex-wife, one of the dates I won. And, you know, I put the idea out there that I would like, “session” with people at SizeCon one year, and I got an email from an incredible person that I ended up dating for a couple years, sort of long distance off and on.

I sent them that the Pokemon story and they phrase it as a really beautiful like D/s lesbian romance. And I had not thought about it that way, you know, because it has a lot of elements of like mind control and size changing and some cruelty. But, you know, it's written from the point of view of… [pause] it's little bit more written from a submissive point of view. Again, something that I hadn't considered until more recently when I'm like, oh, I get why this resonated with me so much.

It was something I wrote sort of as I was coming out as trans. So it's a lot less… [Pause.] There are still scenes of like cruelty and violence in it, but there's also a lot of yearning and desire and like self discovery and acceptance. In problematic ways, because it does involve mind control. Um, you know, I, uh… [pause] forget where I was going with this. Just lost my thread.

Um, don't know.

@1:09:10 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

[Inaudible.] 

Kylie - MissKaneda

[Laughs]

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

I’ve done the exact same thing [and lost my train of thought] several times through this [interview]. I'm like still working through illness and just like, I’m also a night owl. I’m not used to doing stuff this early.

@1:09:37 - Kylie - MissKaneda

But, like, no, I will say to what you said previously, when I first got your email and I saw that you were like funded, I said, what different organizations to do this. I was like, “Oh my God, this woman is absolutely living the dream! How has she done this?” I'm in awe and admiration of your talent.

@1:09:46 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

On that, so I originally started… I have like another character who's based on a real life female giant that I started developing. Um, so there was – I started researching this 19th century giant and human exhibit named Anna Swan. She was one of P.T. Barnum's exhibits. She was famously at his American Museum in downtown New York when it burned down in the 1860s. She married another giant here in London, a church called Saint Martin’s-in-the-Fields on Trafalgar Square in what was, I think, one of, if not the biggest non-royal weddings in this country's history, like–

Kylie - MissKaneda

[Laughs]

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

People gathered all over Trafalgar Square to watch this. They had an audience from Queen Victoria afterwards. And so I built this enormous, almost six foot high, double skirt and crinoline to portray her with. I used some of the money from the Arts Council to build a corset for her as well, and I've also learned how to bulk on stilts so I can actually recreate her body.

I kind of picked this as being what I wanted to develop to the Arts Council. But then… [pause] there was about a three month period between me actually applying to the Arts Council and getting the money from them. And in that time, I actually started to, I actually watched both the original [1958 film] ‘Attack of the 50-Foot Woman’ and its [1993] remake all the way through for the first time. I obviously knew about these films. I'd seen a lot of clips from them in the past. I'd never watched them all the way through.

Whilst watching the remake, I came across this scene shortly after the growth scene where it's just Nancy [Archer, the film’s titular giantess played by Daryl Hannah,] and her psychotherapist, Dora, just sat in the barn where Nancy’s started living and they're just having this therapy session, just this giantess Nancy and the tiny Dora sat on top of this platform. Just having this really amazing and wholesome conversation about how her self-confidence improved since the growth. Having this discussion about women supporting women, basically.

Kylie - MissKaneda

[Laughs]

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

And the whole time, like, Nancy's just sat there like playing with this, like, giant spool of, like, high voltage pylon cable like it's a stim toy. And like, because of the fact that Daryl Hannah who was playing her is also autistic. Like, I just really latched onto this and thought, okay, I… I did… [Pause.] Like that story I was telling you about earlier with me, like parodying the Gary Pranzo films. Like, I just thought, well, I'm not done with that. I kind of want to merge these concepts together and, like, write this… [Pause.] Like, I just said to myself, I'm going to write this ultimate adaptation, this ultimate modernization, of the ‘Attack of the 50-Foot Woman’ story. And it's going to be super queer, and it's gonna be super political, and it's also going to be super kinky as well. And so I've just committed myself over the last, like, six months to like, compiling together like the basis for a book that's going to be like half just me going through, like, academically… [pause] not only like how this kink space operates, [the reason] why I'm doing this interview with you right now, but also like how like bodies have been manipulated by medical science, like to sort of fit [into] gendered and biopolitical norms, and also why queer and trans people attach themselves so readily to monsters in pop culture.

Kylie - MissKaneda

[Laughs]

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

And also, like, just the figure of the giantess in sort of like popular culture as well. And also twin it with a story that's gonna be just about… [pause] like a kind of a new adaptation of Nancy Archer as this young, very queer, very neurodivergent, kind of like very gender divergent kid who like just sort of embezzles a load of money off the US government to create–

Kylie - MissKaneda

[Laughs]

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

–in order to basically create this kind of like queer paradise, like, where this very kind of, like, just patriarchal, queerphobic kind of United States of America once stood. You know–

Kylie - MissKaneda

[Laughs]

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

Yeah, and the governments given me like £12,000 to do that already and I'm going to try and rinse them for another £30,000 next year so I can put on, like, an exhibition and go to the US to do SizeCon and go and scout out locations and everything.

I don't know how this happened–

Kylie - MissKaneda

[Laughs]

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

I still don’t. And, like, just the number of, as I say, the number of organisations like Arts Council England, like the BALTIC Gallery, which is like the one of the biggest, like, contemporary art galleries in Europe and like Shape Arts, who's this, like, one of the most prominent disability arts funders and kind of backers in the UK as well.

And like yeah, just like several academics from the university that I graduated from. It is kind of ridiculous, but also I feel like it's just necessary. I feel like no one's really… [Pause.] What I'm trying to do, and I guess this is also why I was trying to see, to what extent, to you – and I'm also going to be asking all the other people I’m going to interview this – to what extent the formation of your erotic imagination, of your kinks, sort of like, intersected with your own experiences of the body, experiences of the world, experiences of power dynamics, as you kind of said, kind of all intersect with each other because I genuinely think that they're way more connected than people make them out to be.

And I really want to just kind of create a bit of a unifying theory surrounding that and kind of just, and also just kind of be a bit controversial with it. Like, I've also been aware that like, I'm exposing myself as someone who's like actively taken on the kind of giantess persona in terms of my own kind of gender identity, but also like it is also quite a big kink for me and… I'm kind of saying the quiet part out loud–

Kylie - MissKaneda

[Laughs]

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

I think [that] often, like, our experiences of sexuality do really inform our sort of formative gender identities, and that's something that I think a lot of people are kind of just scared to say, or, like, sex and sexuality has to be this ring fence thing where it can't kind of interact with our experience of gender because… [pause] I think that's I think that's more just because stigma all anything else just like the idea that–

@1:17:00 - Kylie - MissKaneda

Yeah, yeah, I mean absolutely. You know that in a lot of places that's sort of something that's cordoned off, you know that… I think in a large way there is a sort of pressure and messaging around a lot of people to separate yourself from your sexuality. To have that be a separate thing that has its own place. And I mean, I know this is not the experience for everyone, but like, there is no me without these elements. You know, they infuse every part of who I am and how I have developed through my entire life.

@1:17:20 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

Well, I mean, here's the thing. I don't necessarily agree that that's not like, at least a lot more of a universal experience than you kind of make it out to be. And that's kind of what I want to test. Like, this is a kind of an experiment to see just how sort of widespread that phenomenon actually is in terms of like how interconnected all of these things are. Maybe, maybe it's something that requires a bit of… [pause] maybe there is something that's just a little bit kind of divergent about that. And like, I don't know. I'm leaving this a very much open-ended question, but that's… it's kind of interesting to know that kind of, like, if I'm doing like through the first couple of rounds I feel like I'm still yet to find anyone who's really not being willing to say, like, “That's not true,” like, “Sexuality is this separated sphere for me, um, from everything else.”

@1:18:25 - Kylie - MissKaneda

Yeah. Well you know there's also an element of me because I had such a hard time engaging with sexuality through most of my life, you know, where I viewed sexuality as, like, you know, when you have penetrative experiences with someone else, and really [having to work] to redefine what sexuality means to me has been something that experiences in meeting all these people in these kink spaces – and also, like, you know, [a] diverse array of gender-y people – has led me to feel a lot more connected to sexuality. Like, even if it's not a driving factor in my life. And I think about these as interesting fantasies that feel good and compel me, more than they connect to my body in a lot of ways.

That can still be sexuality. That sexuality can be sitting on a couch and whispering things to someone. Sexuality can be, you know, joking. Sexuality can be, you know, stepping on someone's neck and leaving cool imprints. And sexuality can be just, you know, laying close to someone and just pushing your bodies together.

You know, I feel much less damaged and much more connected. to myself and other people. A lot less scared of exploring intimacy. Because I've had so many positive examples of sex being whatever you want to make it. And that's become something really important with me as I explore new relationships in my life.

I was married for 12 years. I've now been with one of my girlfriends for almost two and another one, you know, long distance for a little over one. And our experiences with sexuality are very different. All three of us to a degree. And we connect in different ways and it feels really good.

@1:20:51 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

I I think that's just super positive, just to sound completely like a therapist for a second.

Kylie - MissKaneda

[Laughs]

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

But yeah, I just… [pause] yeah, I don't really know what to kind of say beyond that, but like just… [pause] it's been so interesting just like listening to you talk about that kind of journey and, like, I wasn't like expecting to sort of… [pause] I kind of wasn't sure if I was expecting to come here and like have that much of an open conversation about those sorts of elements as well. I did kind of like… [pause] it's been kind of interesting to hear like about like these little sort of snippets of kind of outside of, like, just the kink space as well and just see how, just, like, hear how they’ve kind of like interacted and… how they've kind of like entered and kind of faded away, you know, and how like they've… kind of… [Pause.] Yeah, I don't know.

@1:22:12 - Kylie - MissKaneda

And I think, you know, it's the kind of thing that diffuses through my life, you know. That it's something that I engaged with in a very specific way many years ago, you know, through media and through creativity and… you know, as that became more of a part of me and also something that I shared with people around me that it sort of spread out and became just a more general part of life and who I am, you know. That I'm not necessarily like embodying, you know, a character I played online who's an evil sorceress who shrinks and tortures people, you know. Like, I still find that very hot. [Still find that] very cool. But, you know, I'm also just a woman who can occasionally grab my girlfriend’s chin and make her brain fade away, you know… or, you know, put a hand on the back of someone's neck and squeeze a little bit.

Like, it's a different way to access power that's more, um… [pause] more internal to me.

@1:23:16 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

I guess, assuming you do, still… Do you still, like, create any sort of, like, visual [erotic or pornographic] content? Do you still kind of do [that]?

@1:23:28 - Kylie - MissKaneda

I will, if I'm wearing a really great outfit, I will possibly take some pictures of myself. Um… [pause] but I do very, very little. It's very hard for me to sort of set aside that time. Um, and I don't feel that pressure to engage with that part of myself, you know, in a sort of private way, you know, it's just like who I am.

And, you know… if you explore my social media posts over the years, like they are much fewer and far between over the last few years. You know, it's...

@1:24:05 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

I thought that was the one thing that was kind of outstanding was just like… because I know you did have that Patreon, I know that you, like… [pause] that you have this history of kind of like producing sort of, like, sort of visual content as well, like kind of wondering how that [felt] to still do… after sort of having all those revelations you'd had about your own sort of approach to… gender identity and sexuality and sort of like… as you said, if you're finding new ways of exploring sort of power dynamics through relationships, through different types of kind of sexual encounters, how it kind of felt to just sort of still be doing that work that you'd been… that you'd sort of committed yourself to, like, before that.

@1:24:54 - Kylie - MissKaneda

Yeah, and it's… you know, for various reasons, I just really haven't been. And some of it is not having the free time. Sometimes it’s not sort of having a routine, but you know, I used a lot of that work and that filming and those photos to kind of portray a version of myself that I wanted to embrace.

And… [pause] you know, there was a long time where, like, I could not wait to, you know, go out behind a store and film myself crushing a bunch of little tomatoes. Or, you know… [pause] I couldn't wait to go home, put on a corset and thigh-hives and, you know, take pictures of myself because I had just gotten, you know, something new or, like, I had a new pair of shoes, you know, I would be like immediately thinking about when am I going to be alone, like, tonight, you know, record a video for this…

I think that was a lot because I had limited access to that part of me. You know, I was in… [pause] I was kind of trapped in my previous life and in my marriage. And so those were outlets. And I don't need an outlet in the same way because it's just always present for me now.

And I feel bad about that. Not only for my poor Patreon subscribers, who get very [little] content these days. [Laughs.] Although there is still an enormous amount of backlog material there. So I don't feel horrible. They still are getting plenty to go through.

But because writing was something that I enjoyed… But it used to be something I did feverishly. I needed to sit down and write. I would… [Pause.] When I first got a smartphone, I would be at work and I would be writing chapters in between customers. I couldn't stop. And that drive just isn't there in the same way.

@1:27:00 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

I know, even though I'm gonna… [Pause.] I kind of did very much the same thing, [except in a] kind of [non-sexual, non-erotic] way, when I was kind of in my late teens, I just… [Pause.] I still, probably, on a computer somewhere, have like a manuscript that is like as long as ‘War and Peace,’ [and] I’m not even exaggerating.

But it was… I mean it literally was just, like, me playing with, like, a load of like… sort of, very flawed but nonetheless self-insert kind of characters within, like, a kind of… [a] very, sort of, stylized fantasy version of the kind of school environment that I grew up in. Which, like, as I very briefly mentioned earlier, it was, like, very sort of… British public school. Like, it was, it was sort of…  I wasn't like a boarding-school kid, but, like, I went to, like, a school that was kind of like an Eton [College] or a Harrow [School], like one of the top British, like, boys' schools… [Pause.] But it was completely gender-swapped.

Like, I kind of did, like, use this… as an outlet for me to kind of explore, like, what it would be like if I'd have gone through school as a girl. And as I came out, like, just as I… started university, like… [pause] that kind of, that drive kind of stopped.

And I kind of, like… as I said, even in a non-erotic space, I kind of had that very same feeling where, like… [pause] I was just, like, writing, creating just, like, with an insane level of drive, just as a way of distracting myself from the kind of horror of everything that was going on around me in that way. And it's kind of why, like, coming back to doing long-form writing now as I'm starting to, like, work on this book [‘Nancy//the World’], this story that I'm creating… [Pause.] Like, it's by... I kind of found it hard to get back into doing the long form writing again. It's kind of… I mean, I think to myself, I almost thought about it. Like, November is… I don't know if you know this, but November is National Novel Writing Month. And they, they kind of have this challenge of, like, writing 50,000 words in 30 days–

Kylie - MissKaneda

Yeah. [Laughs.]

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

I thought [I would do the National Novel Writing Month challenge]… to try and get me writing [long-form fiction again]... I'm not going to, like, thank God! Or [I thought about] just doing a version of it [where I set myself a slightly lower word-count target]... But I was, like, thinking to myself, when I was like 15/16 – and I say that not because I didn't know how old I was, but because my birthday is actually in November – I, like… somehow managed to complete this challenge and go about 10,000 words over, despite the fact that I was a school kid at the time – I was doing my [GCSE] exams that year – [because] I just needed that outlet just to escape that and to kind of explore these sort of feelings of gender and sexuality, like… [Pause.] And it even if it wasn't in that same erotic space, like… I get that… [pause] I [understand] that drive and I kind of do… relate to that [feeling of] drying up a bit [creatively] as you, you've kind of like, started to work these things out for what they actually are.

@1:30:18 - Kylie - MissKaneda

Yeah, and you know, like… at SizeCon, you know, they… I'm still invited to the writers panel often, and I sit there with a lot of other very, like, talented and accomplished writers and you know, the question always comes up like, “What are you working on?” And I'm just like, “Ehh, [nothing really,]” and then they, you know, they poke me and they motivate me, you know. Aborigen… [who] you mentioned talking to, you know, he sat right next to me at last year's convention and… [pause] you know, kind of like poked me to, like, think about an idea and talk about an idea and… [pause] you know, it leads me to think like, what, what stories do I want to tell now? Like, what matters to my life? And, you know, I do have this sort of lingering idea of sort of a, um… [pause] a queer, fantastic romance between a woman and a summoned demon of some sort, and both of them sort of being people out of time, uncomfortable with their positions and… [pause] building something together.

I think we're in much more romantic terms right now because that's a big focus of my life, is building… [pause] my romance with people close to me. And… [pause] I have had moments driving around where ideas have sort of popped into my head and I wanted to sort of take notes about what this would be like, but it is much harder to find that drive. You know, it feels less urgent to create as it did before. I think that's what fueled me. The desperate need to access these characters, because I was creating women, complicated women with motivations… 

[Interview recording cut out for ~5-10 seconds]

So it was my connection to [these characters]… I will say, a problematic connection because these were usually, you know, awful women… but, you know, sometimes they were awful women with lovers who appreciated them for what they were. And those still remain some of my favourite things that I [have] created.

@1:32:25 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

Yeah, so I've kind of… [Pause.] I don't know if there's like anything else that's sort of, like, worth speaking about before we sort of start wrapping things up. Or if there's anything like, if there's anything else that you feel like it's worth adding for context, or anything else you kind of want to talk about, or if there's anything you want to ask me actually about the sort of stuff I'm doing like just before…

@1:32:52 - Kylie - MissKaneda

Oh goodness, I mean, I'm very good at being reactive. I haven't really had time to kind of think about that.

You know… [pause] I hope that our conversation has been helpful for your eventual goals.

@1:33:08 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

Yeah. it definitely has. I feel like… So like, for the time being… I want to use some of the material from these interviews to… I want to take extracts from them for all the academic writing that I'm going to put together. And it's something that I do also kind of want to pitch as a PhD project eventually. So it might be, like, a solid few years before I ever, like, fully manifest it as a complete thing.

But there will be some, like… some material may be released quite soon because I have been invited to participate in an event at the Wellcome Collection, which is a gallery space and library research space in Central London that's… whose primary focus is the body, medicine, and public health… to sort of present some work as [self-published zines] for an event there and I'm planning on… [pause] I don't know whether there'll be like separate little foldout zines or whether I'll sort of compile everything together, but I will be taking some extracts from [these interviews] for something I will put together for that.

So I will be kind of drip feeding a few little bits and pieces. And… [pause] yeah obviously as I say like I will be trying everything I can to get to next year's SizeCon so if you are going to be there for that then there is a solid chance that we will probably bump into each other in person.

@1:34:41 - Kylie - MissKaneda

Yeah. I will never miss one. That is the one event I will move Heaven and Earth to be at, no matter where or when. And there's actually there's an online event [called SizeCon Micro – an annual virtual edition of SizeCon hosted on remote conferencing platform ‘Gather,’ that serves as a companion event to the annual in-person SizeCon –] that–

@1:34:49 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

I'm going to try and, like, participate [in SizeCon Micro] as much as I can whilst also being aware of the fact that, like, it's my birthday on Wednesday [8th November] and I will be celebrating through quite a bit of that weekend. And I also… I will probably also be at work for quite a lot of it because we are in the busiest period that my venue has had since the [COVID-19] pandemic at the moment, [with] like two back-to-back sell-out [show runs]... [Pause.]

So I also did, like, also submit like a piece of art for [the SizeCon Micro Art Showcase] as well–

Kylie - MissKaneda

Wonderful!

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

–which I'm hoping they actually take, because I had a bit of a discussion [via email] with the [SizeCon] production team last night where… they were a bit unsure about it because… the piece I submitted was… [Pause.] This has a bit of story behind it which I'm going to quickly go through before I sort of have to wrap up, but when I opened… when I first received the news I got the money [from Arts Council England] to do this project, I was too anxious, really, to open [the email with results of my grant application] at home.

I took myself, like, across to a place called Alexandra Palace in North London, which is this huge, like… sort of Victorian event space on top of a hill. And [I opened] the results there and then, like, to try and take the edge off my nerves a bit, I went for, like, a literal… Like it was about a 15-mile walk through town.

Kylie - MissKaneda

[Laughs.]

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

And I could have gone further than that, but the light was fading. I was like… yeah… [Pause.]

But as I was on this walk, I was sort of walking through Soho and I noticed on, like, a set of… just like pasted on the side of a building that was boarded up for refurbishment, there were these four adverts for a fast fashion chain, like an online fast fashion brand called Missguided. Each of which featured a different model kind of straddling a skyscraper.

Kylie - MissKaneda

Oh!

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

And so I took a photograph of these… adverts and I kind of just, like, adapted that into a poster talking about the connection between, kind of, hyper-consuerism and hypersexuality under capitalism and submitted that.

I think the problem was, I don't know if… because of the fact that it drew so heavily from a piece of, like, found media that I had to sort of say [to the SizeCon staff] that I took the photograph that this is from. This wasn't something I just found on the internet and just slapped a load of extra text on. This is something that I kind of found in the wild, which I'm using to sort of like make a piece of commentary on.

But yeah, I kind of want to be part of that community. During this project, I desperately didn't want to come across as just like a complete outsider who's just here to kind of, like, make a… here to kind of, like, poke fun [at the size community]. Here to make people [feel like weird freaks]… to do the whole kind of freak-show thing. I… [pause] know that it’s just… [Pause.] As someone who, like, as I say, is trans and is also a very tall woman, I don't want to play into that [perception]. I really wanted to integrate myself into the space and sort of treat it with the respect it kind of deserved. And also just like, as I say, poke fun at it and satirise [size kink creativity, community and culture] from [the perspective of] someone who actually has an intimate knowledge of it.

Because like, as I said, would anyone have thought about sort of writing that intricate a parody of the Gary Pranzo films, had they not sort of always known about them and not always have this connection to them?

@1:38:53 - Kylie - MissKaneda

I think it's become an important part of – if you will – “size culture,” which is probably a terrible term to put in there. The terrible jokes are sort of endemic to the experience because it's such an absurd world to exist in. You can't get through any sort of space with other, you know, size-y people for lack of a better term without several terrible jokes or, you know, statements becoming part of that experience. [Laughs.]

@1:39:18 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

As I say, that's definitely something I've noticed, something that I'm really trying to piece into the writing I'm working on. Like, I've just finished writing the opening scene of my book, and it's like, you’re not gonna see anything that's, like, explicitly kinky until about a third of the way through where, like, I start… I kind of smash-introduce the idea [of size-kink to the narrative], like, there's going to be a scene where my two characters who are kind of, like… [pause] sort of young, like… they're kind of based on the Nancy-Dora dynamic from the… ‘90s ‘Attack of the Fifty-Foot Woman,’ but just younger, like, they're kind of, like… 18 and 23 [years old respectively]. They're just, like, hiking through the Santa Monica Mountains one day. And they kind of… noticed a sort of flotilla of warships leaving the port of Long Beach. And Nancy just goes on this massive Freudian-slip tangent about talking about wanting to fuck them. Partly as a kink thing, [and] partly as just like a sociopolitical thing as just, like, a queer person. And she doesn't realise she's saying all that loud to her friend Dora. And then eventually they just kind of realise they both have their own individual kinks and they want to help each other explore that as, like, as a personal thing and also as a sociopolitical thing. 

But like I did write an entire scene at the beginning of this book where, like, a meteor literally crash lands on Nancy's house–

Kylie - MissKaneda

[Laughs.]

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

And like she’s at pains to say it had fuck all to do with anything–

Kylie - MissKaneda

[Laughs.]

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

Like her turning herself into a giantess is entirely on her. Like she didn't need any deus-ex-machina bullshit to kind of make her into the monster.

Kylie - MissKaneda

[Laughs.]

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

It's kind of just like… it's just a thing that happens in her life essentially. But it kind of does set up, like, a lot of trauma as well because like her parents kind of, like, whored her out to the media a lot as being like this girl who survived, you know. Like [she’s] America's little hero.

But like, I just wanted it to be something that everyone thinks is the reason why she's so fucked up. Like it's why she’s kind of like… even, like, before she turns herself into the monster, she's, like, extremely tall and she has a lot of like… [Pause.] I’m tempted to make her intersex or some form of, like, some very… [pause] undefined in terms of gender. And like everyone thinks it's because of the fact that she got hit by the meteor that she's like that, as a way of saying like, “No, like, you're not going to turn into that. Like, you're like this perfect… like you're going to turn into this like perfect all-American girl. Like, she got fucked. Something happened to her–

Kylie - MissKaneda

[Laughs.]

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

She’s got, like, her DNA got fucked up by like sort of alien microorganisms in this meteor and like… no, she's just like a human being. She can't stand how fucking patriarchal and queerphobic the world is. 

Kylie - MissKaneda

[Laughs.]

Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

So like, yeah I kind of like, I love the humor. I-I kind of, I love that about it and I'm so, like… I-I'm just so looking forward to exploring that more and I'm… yeah, again so thankful for you for helping me kind of like, just… yeah I mean kind of… yeah, just to have just to have spent this time to just explore these things with [me], like, as an academic, as an artist and also as a person who also experiences a lot of these things.

@1:42:55 - Kylie - MissKaneda

No, absolutely! I am excited to watch your work develop over time. And, y’knpw, continue to probably see you around.

@1:43:00 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

I mean, I'm going to say just like, because I have to cover a few admin things as well, like, as I did say, like, I am kind of offering… So the government did give me kind of money to pay people for their time before this. So like, please do, like, drop me just… some form of way I could pay you with that. And please don't worry about that. Like, if you don't take the money up, I have to give it back to the government, and I’d much rather you have the money than the Conservative Party frankly.

@1:43:30 - Kylie - MissKaneda

Sure. I will, I will graciously accept.

@1:43:38 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

But yeah, but also if you would like, when I spoke with Katharine I also kind of offered to send her, like, a load of like the little self-publications that I've made, including the story I told you about earlier based on the Gary Pranzo films. So if you'd like me to extend that to you as well, then please drop me a postal address as well and I will happily send those to you.

@1:44:04 - Kylie - MissKaneda

Oh my gosh, that is—

@1:44:06 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

I do, like, I have my own printing equipment. I do sort of like print and sort of publish my own like little zines and chapbooks and things like that.

@1:44:16 - Kylie - MissKaneda

I was going to say, I think I have heard of the 50-Foot Press before probably through one of my, you know, more like writer and publisher attached friends.

So I would be delighted to have a—.

@1:44:28 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

Even though I am so shit at promoting myself! Like, anyway, yeah, like, do feel free to just send me those details, like, when you can, and I will obviously get that across to you as soon as I'm able to. But like, yeah, I just want to thank you for your time today. And, yeah, I hope we will be able to kind of speak in the future and just like potentially even meet each other in person next year.

@1:45:02 - Kylie - MissKaneda

Definitely! it was a very wonderful time speaking with you. I enjoyed it greatly and I'm really grateful that you, you know, kind of found me and reached out to me. I enjoyed this a lot and I will look forward to everything to come.

@1:45:14 - Abigail Jacqueline Jones 

Thank you and see you around!